Because my post on what you pay for with an escort devolved into a discussion on dating an escort (not the original intent of the post) and then into a discussion on men/women/relationships in general, I thought I’d give you a feeling of what it’s like to be a single escort based on my experiences and those of escorts I know. (Since I like men, this is from the traditional perspective of male/female romantic relationships.)
Scenario 1: Dating a client
You hit it off with a client. Really really hit it off. Sparks fly and you’re pretty sure it’s mutual. It takes a few more appointments to really be sure that yes, it’s real. The more you reveal of yourself, the better it gets. Everything about him is check marks across the board. So do you break the biggest taboo and get involved? He already knows what you do for a living so that conversation, at least, is not one you’ll need to have. He may have to overcome his own preconceived notions about you, like you never have a bad mood or might not really be all that fascinated by his job. The fantasy aspect of escort work is strong enough that sometimes being “real” is enough to be a deal-breaker.
Sub-clause A: The married client
Since the vast majority of your clients are married, chances are he is too. Don’t do this. Wait till he’s divorced, recovered and ready for a normal relationship. He may actually leave his wife for you. Not good. Unless you’re ready to be the free girlfriend of a married man (and this may actually suit you just fine if you’re commitment-shy), it’s really best if he keeps paying you. Become his mistress instead. Don’t count on his speedy divorce to move your relationship along because divorcing his current wife is way more expensive than you’ll ever be.
Sub-clause B: The single client
The rare single client is a find! But wait…why is he still single? Married to his job? If you’re commitment-shy, this may work out great for both of you. If you’re looking to settle down, maybe not so well. Is he single simply because he hasn’t found The One? Hmm…this could be promising…
Sub-clause C: The divorced client
If he’s been divorced for years, he may actually be ready for a real relationship and may have gained some wisdom in the process. If he’s freshly divorced, there will be some issues that rear their very ugly heads later on. Or maybe not so later. Better keep this one as a client.
After the initial evaluation of where you and he are in your respective lives, you decide to make the move. He may’ve danced around this topic already but chances are he’s a good client and good clients let the lady make her own decisions.
It worked! Now you’re happily dating. Hopefully he’s not the sort to crow about it on discussion boards and you both start living your relationship.
As always, getting involved impacts your work. Despite popular myth, relationships affect your work, not the other way around. You’d rather spend time with someone you like and who likes you, someone who really knows you instead of a persona, someone for whom you can show up in sweats and it’s not going to hurt their image of you, someone whom talking to is effortless and stimulating, someone with whom the sex is hothothot and deeply fulfilling — in short, not a client. So you slack off and do just enough to pay the bills. Love is always more important than money.
Sub-clause D: Don’t take offense, clients
The whole point of a relationship with one other special person is that the relationship is supposed to be special and far beyond the ordinary, everyday experience. When your everyday work is about connecting with others and sharing intimate moments, it not only raises your own standards/expectations of what you want out of a relationship, it means that when you find someone who hits or exceeds that mark — it really blows your mind. We’re talking a very, very rare person. Like Iberian Lynx rare.
Scenario 1 outcome A:
It just keeps getting better and better. It never stops. You’ve found a friend, a supporter, a fan and someone worth loving. Any woman thinks of settling down when she finds that perfect match. Given what you know about men and the issues of being an escort, the likelihood of you finding someone like this again is miniscule. What to do next? Some might retire. Others might keep as they are. Others may get married. Whatever you do, you’re doing it with him. And he’s with you every step of the way.
Scenario 1 outcome B:
The most likely thing to happen is that it blows up. One day you discover he has serious issues about your work. It may be disguised as “concerns” (e.g. safety, health, financial, etc) but it’s really that he has issues with your work. On rare occasions, escort relationships are really with two incompatible people, but given that escorts know people and usually know when things click, the most common reason things go downhill is that he has issues with your work. Sometimes these issues may surprise him as it digs up stuff he never even thought about. Not that it matters much — you’re the focus of the problems and there goes the relationship.
As an added bonus, that you met him as a client is just more relationship-ammunition for him. Another bonus is that you can now re-focus on your work, though frankly, work is the last place you want to be. An alternate ending to this is Scenario 2 sub-clause A outcome B.
You decide not to date clients.
Scenario 2: Dating a civilian
You try online dating because, well, it seems so easy! Turns out that although escorts are supposed to be honest in their advertising, men looking for free sex partners aren’t nearly so honest. You have to figure out whether they’re married first before you can starting doing the criminal background check. After finally finding one who seems to be a normal human being you may actually want to spend time with, he shows up and looks like nothing the photos from 10 years ago on his ad.
Scenario 2b: Sugar Daddies
You try one of those sites. Turns out it’s full of really cheap bad clients. If you’re going to earn money for dating, it’s easier to just stick with your work. Your escort rates are higher and your clients are better than these guys.
Real life turns out to be the answer, as it always is. You meet some eligible men and things happen. You start dating. How long will your flimsy cover story about your so-called day job hold up? Should you tell or not?
Sub-clause A: Tell
You bite the bullet and tell.
A) He thinks it’s cool. He’s intrigued. Whew. The sex gets better too! Things will progress until it ends. See Scenario 1 outcome A or B.
B) He can’t get past it. Everything blows up. Oh well, you didn’t have too much emotionally-invested in someone you couldn’t be honest with anyway. Wait, does he know where you live? Your real name? Your online identity? Is he going to go away or become a stalker?Sub-clause A outcome A:
He goes away, you pick again from the scenarios.Sub-clause A outcome B:
He doesn’t go away. You get a lawyer, a dog, move away, restart your life and your business. You may even get the police involved (worse — he gets the police involved.). You learn about skip-tracing, TOR, privacy, etc. At the very least, you now have a whole new field of knowledge and know who your real friends are! It’s also very likely you have some added baggage when you consider dating anyone ever again. You consider finding a therapist, but that’s a lot like dating. We know how that goes!
Sub-clause B: Don’t tell
You invent a better cover story or just get more mysterious. Things go great but there’s the suspense of all your lies hanging over your head. Because you can’t totally be yourself around him or introduce all your friends to him, the relationship is a bit shallow. But it’s a relationship!
Most of the time these relationships just fade away or stop working or whatever. There are a few escorts who are married and do this secretly. Most don’t. Most normal people don’t really need the added stress in their lives. (Do not read the Tracy Quan/Nancy Chan books as a realistic relationship template.)
When this ends — and it will — you pick from one of the scenarios again. Unless it ends like Scenario 2 sub-clause A outcome B because he found out.
Forget trying to start a relationship. Maybe it would just be easier to use the Internet for what’s it’s really for: SEX!
Scenario 3: Using civilians for sex
So you join some sites (swinger groups or sites like AdultFriendFinder). You naively think that a woman looking for no-strings-attached (NSA) sex would have a really easy time of it online. That is, if one were able to judge chemistry through the screen. And if men were honest about basic things like their height or sexual experience or fitness level.
The few men you do hook up with aren’t anything to tell your girlfriends about. Most of the time, you leave them thinking you should’ve been paid because you got nothing out of it. Your favorite clients are way more fun than this and treat you better too. (If you live in a tourist town, like Vegas, chances are strong that the men you like best live in states you never visit.)
Thinking out of the box, you try CraigsList Casual Encounters and discover that not only are the men posting there psycho, many of them want relationships. Isn’t that what the Misc Romance section is for?
You try sex clubs. Not as much sex goes on as one might hope for. And quality is out the window.
Your Internet dating attempts teach you that illiterate men are a huge turn-off.
Scenario 4: Other Options
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speaking from experience
I’ve pursued relationships with three clients. That’s finally been enough for me to learn my lesson. (One might still read this blog, one only read a post which referred to him and the third does not read this blog at all.)
Update 8/2020: I’m on another client-relationship and this one is working well (been a couple years, I’m retired, starting civvie work). The one before him was great too, however he’s married and remaining married. When we meet in another life it will be different.
I did try client-relationships a couple other times and they bombed very quickly. I’ll say this for age: you learn how to detonate any possible explosions and quickly too. Clearing out leftover ordnance in a man is a task that should be done ASAP in order to determine what’s to be done next, if anything.
As to why? I’m a hermit. I just don’t meet men any other way these days. Quarantine put zero crimp in my style because I barely noticed a difference in my routine. Quite happy living in my home and avoiding the masses.
I’ve tried SeekingArrangement too. All I can say — made me appreciate the self-honesty of actual clients.
I’ve used the Internet (like CraigsList and swingers’ groups) to find NSA sex partners. With very rare exception this is an utter waste of time/energy. At this point I’m just saving my money so I can book an overnight with a male escort. And waiting to see a broader selection at the Shady Lady.
Yes, I have stories. They would fill another blog.
why is it so hard for escorts?
The reason for all this angst? Real relationships are difficult. Period.
Then you mix in his beliefs/issues about sex, women’s sexuality, his relationship to money, stereotypes about sex work/sex workers, his friends, his family and it gets much, much more difficult. (Extra difficulty-points if either/both of you have ex-spouses/children.)
Then add in your own issues, some of them from the very real prejudice and problems you experience as an escort. Some issues arise just because you’re a very experienced woman — far more than the average office co-worker he’s likely to run into. The people-experiences and self-knowledge you develop as an escort set you far apart from ordinary women. You may look and act ordinary on the surface but if you were indeed ordinary — you wouldn’t be an escort in the first place. Not being ordinary makes relationships tough because your needs and expectations aren’t anything he’s encountered before. Some men are very capable of learning and growing. Many are not. And there is no easy well to tell until you’ve taken the chance with him.
Every time you meet someone who sparks your interest, or think about putting yourself out there to meet someone (because you are a human and would very much like some sort of partner) — all this goes through your head over and over again.
Many girls I know don’t date while they’re working. It’s just easier that way.
Any guy who would date an escprt knowing she was/is an escort is a one sad dude.
After an escort has sucked the cock of hundreds if not thousands of Men, and had cocks of the same in their pussy, and cum from all of those Men on them… there is no way in the bloody HELL I would want to touch that Woman with a 10 foot pole attached to some other guy’s dick, lol.
I’d say, if you were an escort, keep that shit a secret. Don’t tell a guy, because the relationship is more than likely fucked from that point forward, if not over altogether.
In my opinion, once you’ve escorted you’re kind of like a leper. You just can’t be let back into the normal community anymore. You’re WAY beyond damaged goods at that point.
Jim,
And that’s just your opinion. It’s not any sort of proven fact, though I am going to guess which of us is happier with our lives. (Hint: it’s the person who gets laid more.)
So, in accordance to your own philosophy, this must mean you’re a pure virgin? Otherwise, why would any woman want to touch you if you’ve been tainted by having sex with anyone other than yourself?
I wonder what it would be like if everyone in this world became either poly or like Amanda “open ” .
Would it stop the wars ?
would it stop jealousy ?
Will there be children?
What will happen to the churches ?
Should it be the new religion / morality replacing current?
Do you think they should pass legislation legalising such arrangements ? I wonder whether poly/open partners should get any rights ?
Kris,
I just wonder what it would be like if everyone was honest with themselves about what they really want out of a relationship. That’s all I’m after. (I KNOW what I want and I’m very upfront about that with partners. They can take it or leave it.) Religion is a factor only because it’s responsible for an often-repressive model of adult romantic relationships responsible for an awful lot of unhappiness in society.
Self-honesty means there will still be a whole spectrum of relationships, but hopefully w/o a lot of the problems plaguing relationships based on an non-realistic model of sexual fidelity as the measure of the relationship. Human nature is mostly non-monogamous so yes, I think people being more open to non-traditional relationships means we’ll have a much happier population (because relationships are very important to most human beings).
Having a happier population will lead to a lot of very good consequences. I don’t think that’s a stretch of imagination at all.
If I could legislate self-awareness, self-honesty, open-mindedness and waiting to start a family until one is fully an adult — I would. But we all know how much people like laws controlling their lives.
However, none of the tired points you raised were the point of my post. At all.
XX
Just found your blog. Hypothetical question; if you found a single guy, you met professionally, whom you were very compatible with in nearly every way – intellectually, physically, emotionally, common interest, sexually, lots of great times together and he asked you to be in an exclusive arrangemtent with him. And, by exclusive, he meant that you would only a provider only to him for a mutually agreeable extended time and he also had the resources to meet your financial and agreed to provide for your financial security. Would you take him up on his offer? If so, why; if not, why not and what reasoning and thoughts would go into your decision
Benjamin,
I would seriously consider it. Most girls would. Assuming both of us got along really well on a personal level, it would be very good for all concerned. For me, it if wasn’t working personally, then probably not. That would be too much like marriage!
XX
In my opinion, your reply was “spot on”. If there is no personal, emotional, and/or intellectual connection, an exclusive arrangement is DOA. If, during a 24 hour period, you spend 4 hours on foreplay, actual intercourse, and snuggle time, then are asleep for 6-8 hours, that still leaves 12-14 hours that there has to be a lot of commonality. I have seen provider ads that had yearly rates of between $750,000 and $1.5 Million. Even with that amount of financial commitment, if there is no bonding, the arrangement will dissolve very quickly. Or conversly, if the guy feels as if he is being taken advantage of because of the lack of personal connections, he will decide the arrangement is not worth it. But, I strongly believe that it is possible for an exclusive arrangement to work for an extended time and be the basis for a great relationship.
OK, so you’re 0 for 3 dating clients. If you’re still single, you’re 0 for N in the “real world,” too, so does that mean you aren’t going to ever date again? If you go by the number of strike-outs, then anyone will have struck out more often in the real world than with clients.
With respect to online dating, online dating works if you go about it right. If you are looking for someone who is intelligent, write a profile that makes you appear intelligent and don’t post photos that say, “Boink me.” Then expect the process to take a while. As you’ve already noticed, lot’s of guys are after sex, so you get lots of emails about sex. On the other hand, guys get very few replies and even fewer from women who are datable, so it’s a numbers game even though the game differs in how each side needs to play.
Beenthere,
Good point. I haven’t toted up my non-client relationships, there have only been a few more (relationships, not booty calls or one-night stands). However, clients are such a big taboo for us that I made a point of talking about my experience there. Everyone who isn’t happily with a partner has struck out with relationships otherwise — I guess. The metric of success may differ with individuals.
I tried online dating both from the intelligent side and from the sex-only side. Both results were dismal. Really really dismal. I was honest in my ads (aside from not posting revealing or full-face photos and not disclosing I’m a sex worker). Men are nowhere within shouting distance of honest in their ads. This might just be Vegas since that’s where the bulk of my online dating attempts were. Still, I’ll just leave the Internet for work.
XX
The men who describe escorts as “damaged goods” or “sloppy seconds” absolutely drive me up the wall. They wouldn’t consider dating someone who has had protected sex yet they pick up girls weekly who may have never used condoms. The logic just boggles mind. And as Amanda pointed out to one of the commentors, it’s easy to tell who is much happier and fulfilled in their life.
Ghosthorse,
Exactly. Sex workers are FAR more risk-averse than the average person on the street (or bar).
And thank you!
XX
WOw. this blog was really interesting. I had posted an ad for the first time on craigslist in the romance “women seeking women” section. So out of the 30 responses I got – I decided I liked this 1 girl in particular the most. She was the smartest, one of the prettiest, and a super good flirt and somehow knew everything that I liked. So after a month we decided to be a lil more serious. She initiated that we have a 1 on 1 relationship and insisted she was “wifey.” I kept having the same dream though that she was selling sex online…so I googled her phone number. THen I saw alllllllll the threads and posts of her and her pretend escort name and her phone number next to her naked pics all over! I was like daaaang. She even had her own website. I asked her about her other name and does she still work……..and well she denied even knowing the name or the website. We still talk,…but she has yet to bring up her REAL work or admit to what she does for a living. She still calls everyday…..I listen,….but I really dont understand her motives with me.
hmmm,
I don’t understand her motives either. I’m guessing she’s been badly burned before but…why use the same phone number for everything? Glad you took the sudden revelation fairly well.
If you like her, keep talking to her. If nothing else, you may end up with an interesting friend.
XX
Amanda, I finished my dissertation and would like to share it with you. Thank you for everything! Hope all is going well. Please send me an email at sloan@mnstate.edu and I will send you an electronic copy. Geraldine Hendrix-Sloan
Geraldine,
Nice to hear from you! Can’t wait to find out more, will email you today. Thanks for posting this, maybe anyone else who participated will read and email you too.
XX
“My favorite gentlemen fill a place for me a boyfriend has yet to reach.”, said Kerstyn. That’s also how I feel as a client. Now that I’ve found (and been spoiled by) pros, I frankly have no use for “amateurs”.
Out of ignorance, and germophobia, I shamefully admit to having once shared some of the same hangups mentioned by the trolls.
I’ve since become a non-civilian (?), seen the light, and realized exactly what was posted in response.
And dating sex workers is not a fantasy at all. It does present problems, of course (but what relationship doesn’t?), and I think that Amanda did a very thorough job of listing the possibilities.
I never completely went that route, but (kind of) saw a provider outside of her work for a while myself, and know it comes up. There IS a maturity requirement, that’s for sure.
Just noticed in your “lectio libri” section that you read Pink Box. For those who haven’t, in Japan, they have clubs for females that many sex workers patronize to finally get a little NSA TLC from the other sex (hosts).
Reading your hints at male escorts for your own use in this blog, I often thought of bringing it up, but thought that the reference would be too obscure (It seems that I underestimated the breadth of your interests).
I know that the demand for male companions isn’t that great, but wouldn’t it be nice for you professional ladies to have this outlet?
Hobbyist,
Maturity is the be-all, end-all word, I think. Spot on.
I’ve actually read Pink Box a number of times (listed was the most recent re-read). Host clubs are a booming business in Japan still. Male escorts are a growing concern in the US/UK/Oz/NZ, though most attract civilian women, not working girls. Some working girls have real interest, some turn their noses up at the concept.
Maturity. 🙂
XX
I’ve read this a couple of times, and always end up with the same questions and thoughts.
Escorts that try to date, and then fall in love, and then devalue / discard, are somatic narcissists. I’ve been on the receiving end of a personality disordered escort. Escorts are damaged goods, they never know what true feelings are. Sad for them, but sadder for their prey.
Ant — Not sure what to say about that, except there’s no way I can address EVERYTHING.
John — Perhaps you are the problem.
There is nothing “damaged” about escorts except most have a hard time dealing with the shit everyone else piles on them. That, and being an escort makes a woman EXTREMELY aware of what she does/doesn’t want in a partner and what she is/isn’t willing to tolerate in her personal life. Most men are nowhere near as developed in their thinking.
It’s kind of like a Ferrari trying to go for a drive with a 1970s Pinto that hasn’t been maintained since it came off the line.
XX
Amanda,
sorry, wasn’t meaning that you needed to address EVERYTHING. 🙂
It just makes me think of a lot of questions when i read it. but they are personal and ones i wouldn’t ask in the open.
But it does make me feel sad when i read it.
Ant,
Shouldn’t make you feel sad, unless you’ve been one of these men who can’t handle a woman being who she is. In which case: open your mind.
If that’s not you, then no worries.
XX
I dont think i am one of those men.
The reason it makes me feel sad is because what you wrote shows just how much harder it must be to try and have a relationship in your line of work. Its sad that anyone feels they cant do both.
Life is already hard enough. Having to choose between earning a living and a close relationship isnt fair.
Ant — It’s not fair, but this isn’t the only profession where this happens. What’s sad isn’t “having to choose” because most escorts can handle work and a relationship; what’s sad is that so many partners (of both genders) see it as something that requires a choice to be made. THAT’S the sad part.
But…this post was gallows humour, not a piteous moan.
XX
I dont know. I have read a few blogs where it seems like the person is having trouble with it herself.
I am not saying it cant be done, but it cant be very easy. Sex isnt always just sex, especially as one get older and wants more emo instead of just fwb.
I think i am a pretty open minded person, and i know that i would struggle with it.
But by the same token, if someone else can, and it works out for them, then thats good.
I just wish it were better…
It has been my experience that “friends with benefits” and “fuck buddies” are both oxymorons. Sooner or later, emotional attachment rears its ugly head and either the “friendship” ceases or it becomes something more than what is was previously. I have found out that I can have female friends – really good female friends- as long as there is no sex involved.
On several occasions, I have made it very clear that I was not interested in marriage or any permanent commitment and was told that my position was okay and that they were good with that. However, when the sex became a regular part of our relationship, the questions began as to when we were going to move in together or when were we going to get engaged.
Again, for clarification and to not upset anyone, this has been my past experience and maybe I have just not been able to find the right person. To me, it is like finding a specific needle in a haystack of needles.
Ant — Most escorts are quite okay with being an escort and having a relationship. I know it seems difficult to civilians but work-sex and personal-sex exist in two different universes. There is no confusing the two. EVER.
The issues I’ve seen come up have to do with the escort’s own socialization, their personal growth as an escort (while their partner does not grow) OR with the shit their partner is giving them (90% of all relationship problems). Or those rare instances where client-sex suddenly feels like personal-sex. That’s when you know there could be something with that client.
If you would “struggle” with the issue, then you’re not that open-minded. 🙂
Larry — I have no problem with fuck-buddy arrangements and have not since college when I kept a stable of different guys on retainer. I’m just wired that way. I daresay that most escorts are (those who have felt drawn to the work; not those who simply are making rent).
Not sure how to find women who aren’t interested in anything more than reliable sex on call. My first guess would be to find women who are married to their jobs. My second guess would simply be to find women who don’t think in traditional ways. Or choose older women whose kids/husband are gone — they probably don’t want to restart the whole family thing.
On the other hand, my experience is that few men are okay with being a fuck-buddy. I often have to play their silly “relationship” game just to get laid when I want. (This gets tedious and is something I’m no longer willing to waste my time with.)
It all goes back to people not being self-aware and honest about what they really want.
XX
“You are just wired that way”; I daresay that being wired that way is a big part of why you are so successful. In my experience any type relationship, regardless of how it is defined, will only continue if it is evolving – staying as is constitutes
“backing up”.
Choosing older women has caused me more grief than you can imagine between them being married to men who were abusive and/or them having so many emotional afflictions (hang-ups) in the bedroom which requires more effort and time to overcome, at my age, than I am willing to expend.
Even if I were to begin an exclusive arrangement with a provider in which financial commitment, time commitment and longevity parameters were established and agreed up front, I don’t believe that the relationship would remain static for any length of time. I am considering such an arrangement, but have not fully come to the decision that what works in theory and in my mind would actually work in reality. So, I do feel as if I am literally looking for that specific needle in a haystack of needles.
The dynamics of a fuck-buddy arrangement in itself is fraught with perils just as you mentioned so why even go there. How many people do you know who are fully self-aware and honest about who they are, where they are headed, and what they want in their life?
Larry — I think like a “man” in a lot of ways (at least, how society defines “male” thinking). And I agree about getting bored or stuck in a rut: that’s DEATH to any relationship (including same-sex friendships).
I guess you’re in the wrong generation for older women. I’m guessing women my age and younger will be man-eaters when we’re older. Though I would not blame any woman for having issues after having been with an abusive man. I’d blame the man for being abusive. (Not that you’ve signed up to be a social worker to fix everyone.)
I’ve known a number of providers who enter into arrangements. Being professionals, my guess is that they can keep things lively. A couple of very successful girls have been in their arrangements for a couple years. You go with your gut, of course. Just don’t enter into it and change your mind a month later. The girl will kill you.
Don’t forget, you’re part of the equation too! You have a responsibility to keep things dynamic as well (and I’ve no doubt she would appreciate your help in this matter).
Lots of luck with your decision!
I keep trying with fuck-buddy arrangements. It’s generally what suits me best (I gravitated toward it as soon as I started having sex). I’m always very upfront with what I’m looking for and have been from the beginning. The problem is that guys rarely believe I’m telling the truth. This leads to hurt feelings later on. Sigh. If everyone else stopped playing games with each other it would make MY life so much easier!!! 🙂
XX
Three other blogs I looked at today had something on fuck-buddy relationships – must be a popular subject.
I am of the generation of older women and “thanks but no thanks” for the reasons I stated in my previous comment.
If anyone stays in a relationship after the second time of being abused, then they become an enabler and if they stay, shame on them. And in my opinion, emotional abuse is just as destructive as physical and verbal abuse. Any way you cut it, abuse is abuse.
Having been single for over 24 years and seen all the games and agendas of the dating area, I am not interested in ever participating in that again.
So, I am going to find a provider somewhat older than you yet younger than me who meets my very broad criteria and would like to be in an exclusive arrangement for an extended period of time. The decision has been; it is just a matter of finding the “right” one!
I think “playing games” while in relationships is the national pastime; at least it seems that way to me.
Thanks for your replies!!!
Larry — Do not EVER blame the victim of abuse. There are a TON of factors that go into someone staying in an abusive relationship, not the least of which is that they often cannot afford to leave.
No abuse victim is EVER responsible for their abuse. The person abusing them is responsible. Those who abuse choose to abuse. Period.
Yes, I believe abusive behavior is a choice — few adults are so truly insane that they’re incapable of figuring out their actions cause harm. While staying in an abusive relationship can indeed be a conscious choice, this does not mean the victim is responsible for their own abuse.
Blame the abuser, not the victim.
Amanda,
I would NEVER blame the victim for the abuse nor is any victim responsible for their own abuse. If I gave that impression, then I certainly did not mean to do such and sincerely apologize. If anyone is abused in any way, there is help available in many forms and staying in an abusive relationship is not a good thing for the victim.
I have known several women who were in abusive relationships and after they finally did leave, each was very remorseful that she did not leave sooner.
My statement about being an enabler was meant to convey that it seems to give the abuser tacit approval for abusive action, at least in all the situations I was personally aware of. In my opinion, abuse of children and/or women should NEVER be tolerated.
Larry — You did give the strong impression you blamed the victim for their abuse.
We all have hindsight on our actions, even with things as stupidly simple as splurging on an item we really didn’t need. Relationship-based hindsight is so much worse and much trickier. After all, one of the hallmarks of an abusive relationship is ensuring the victim can’t (or believe they can’t) leave. Once a victim is free, of course they think “I should have done that sooner.” Always. I can’t imagine a victim who felt they should’ve hung around a bit longer to see what would happen.
As for the abuser thinking their abuse is approved of or tolerated by their victim…I think a large part of that is their self-reinforcing delusions about themselves and their relationship to the victim. And there are other factors I’m sure arise; thinking that they’re not getting “caught,” that they’re not doing anything that “bad,” that they really won’t do it again, or perhaps a simple lack of empathy to realize they’re being abusive (as with emotional abusers). I can think of a lot of situations women I’ve known have been in: parental abuse, partner abuse, predator abuse, community abuse (highly-emotional abuse). It’s hard to make generalizations about the abusers except that it generally suited their purposes to keep the victim under their thumb as long as possible.
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What I wrote was in the context of an adult couple in a relationship. And, I still believe that abuse by one partner on the other should never be tolerated. The first attack regardless of physical, emotional, or mental should not be condoned and the victim should give fair warning to the abuser that that kind of behavior will not be permitted ever again.
If the victim in my scenario allows the abuse to continue, then where does fault lie? With the abuser? Absolutely 100%, but imho if the victim does nothing the first time abuse happens then, again imho, the abuser believes (wrongly for sure)they have permission to attack again. Just like bullying when a kid; once you stand up to a bully, they probably will not bully you again.
Abuse of any kind in any situation should not be permitted or tolerated. But in the real world it does happen and should be stopped immediately; not only after repeated incidents.
I do realize that my view is very different from yours which makes our horizons different. But again abuse whether strong partner against weaker partner, adult against child, predator abuse, abuse by anyone against any sex worker, or community abuse should never,ever be tolerated.
You have a great Thanksgiving Day regardless of your location or whomever you might be with.
Larry — I’m guessing you haven’t been a woman in an abusive relationship. Saying “should” is a very, very easy thing for you to do.
It would be a lot easier for all abuse victims if abuse itself wasn’t condoned by society. And it is. This is the first thing that makes it difficult for victims to leave, report or even acknowledge the situation to themselves. And then they have the shame of realizing “Oh shit, I didn’t do anything the first time it happened, so now I’m to blame for the abuse.” Your views help contribute to keeping victims in abusive situations (because you’re not the only man to share this view, I’m pretty sure abusers do too). Don’t kid yourself that yours is a helpful or compassionate view. It isn’t. Nor is it practical in the real world because it only continues to punish the victim.
OMG – what I write here and what arrives there seems to be completely different. Where in anything I wrote did you get that I condone abuse? I am trying to convey to everyone in the world – DO NOT CONDONE ABUSE BY ANYONE ON ANYONE.
Amanda, if a client abused you in any manner (verbally, emotionally, or God forbide – physically) would you say, “Oh he was nice other than that one incident, I think I want to see him again”? I certainly think not!
Of course, I have never been a woman – I thought the name would have given you a clue. But, I was verbally and emotionally abused by an ex-wife on many occasions.I have regreted my inaction every day of my life. The first time it happened, I should have made it clear to her that she did not have the right to talk to me in that manner. I did leave when the abuse became too much to bear. Maybe that I is why I am so passionate about standing up to the abuser. Look in the mirror and know that the person you see is the only person who is in control of your life.
What would you advise a person whom you know was being abused on a regular basis?
Larry, I’m with you, but I think I see why you’re not coming across right. In your original post, you clearly pointed the finger at the victim (“shame on them”), then you backpedalled a little. But women, especially women-rights activists and those familiar with abuse, are bound to, um, “react” to that. They spend their lives telling the abused that they did nothing wrong to help them heal, after all.
I don’t think it’s that simple (I’m in the same boat as you – men can be on the receiving end too, we just don’t get any sympathy). To a man, a crucial part of recovery is ownership (and that’s how so many turn into bullies).
As you rightly said, ANY abuser or criminal is 100% responsible for the consequences of his actions and the ONLY one to blame. BUT, people have to be educated not to become or keep being abused/attacked/victimized. And that includes the necessary step of looking at themselves to understand what made them a target in the first place. That doesn’t mean beating themselves up some more, that means gaining self-awareness and more awareness of the evils of this world, but it’s a painful process that goes against the grain of that great american illusion that we can be or do anything we want.
I’d rather leave it at that because I think the rest is largely outside the scope of the discussion. A lot of it is political, besides the obvious psychological/sociological issues.
Many people deny reality and try to reform the world by projecting and assigning blame only in narrow and safe directions.
The only time I’ve seen women follow me on this is in gun rights discussions, where they tend to have that “I refuse to be weak; I refuse to be a victim; I will do what I have to do” mindset.
If you are a man, and especially a white man, you probably won’t see eye to eye with the rest of the population on this, and that’s OK. They think you’re shooting at the ambulance… and that drill sergeants are just sadistic a-holes when they are playing a very calculated part in keeping men alive in hell.
[Putting on the body armor now, Amanda! :)]
Hobbyist,
My narrow focus was on the audience I am most familiar with – adult f/m relationships. BTW, you articulated my position much more succint than I ever could – thanks. A lot of these issues are political and one answer does not fit all relationships nor all cultures.
Now, I will also put on my body armor…..just kidding everyone, just kidding.
Would yours be… leather, rather than kevlar? (Trying to maintain the mood!)
Thanks for keeping a sense of humor about a dead serious topic, BTW. And I didn’t mean to offend by using the word “narrow” – I’ve been there. The more focused you are on an issue, the deeper you get, and the harder it is to keep perspective. Everybody becomes the enemy and/or a target for judgment and we’re right at the “chip on the shoulder” thing that came up in another section to bite Larry somewhere.
I’ve been around the block enough to see my world and righteous convictions turned upside down a few times. That’s life’s way of telling you not to take anything people say too seriously and that you should try and keep learning.
If everybody was like me, though, nothing would ever change so I’m not even advocating tolerance and laissez-faire. I’ll share my opinion, but it’s very much “live and let live” after that…
Hey, I’m mostly familiar with adult (well, a relative term) f/m relationships… what are you trying to say?! lol
LOL, neither leather or kevlar – too young for leather and too old for kevlar!!! We called them “flak jackets” and they were damn heavy and hot.
You did not offend me; it was my choice to use “narrow” because I realize that I do not know enough to articulate the solutions for all types of abuse. But, I do believe that standing up for yourself and saying “no more” is a start for ending abuse in an adult f/m relationships. In this world of the “speech police”, I did not want to imply that I was speaking about every type relationship out there.
Learning is the main reason I am a regular reader of this blog and several others of this genre – never too old to learn!!!
Oops, I just realized I was responding to Larry’s post, not Amanda’s (old eyes, already)! Sorry about the confusion everyone (Leather? Wouldn’t have gone there with you, Larry!)…
🙂
Larry — I’m sorry you were emotionally-abused. Of course you feel you should have changed the situation. That at the time of the abuse you COULDN’T change that situation should tell you everything you need to know about abusers and how they abuse (I won’t even go into victim-grooming, a far more insidious process). I hardly hold you responsible for you own abuse. If you found it difficult to stand up to your wife and stop her abuse, try to imagine how much MORE difficult it is for a woman to do this in a relationship. Obviously, it’s something that can be done. But even if it isn’t done right away, it does not mean the victim is to blame for their own abuse. No one in their right mind invites that into their life.
I will always blame the abuser for making the choice to harm someone else. Always. Yes, it absolves the victim of “responsibility” for being abused. Why our society somehow likes to think victims should be held “responsible” for being abused is beyond me. I don’t think it’s a question of the poor white male being put upon or a feminist thing, it’s just logical for me to want to put the burden of responsibility for harm on the one doing the harm. Period.
Otherwise, following your logic, every murder victim, every person exterminated by Hitler, every civilian caught in a war, every rape victim were all asking for it and contributing to their own harm. Bullshit.
Hobbyist — As a former cop, I assumed you do the victim-blaming thing too. No surprise there.
As far as anyone can tell, women make themselves a “target” for abuse simply by being born with a pussy. When you cut all the victim-blaming arguments down to the bone, that’s what it comes down to. One day I would like a society where men (the vast majority of abusers are men) are held accountable for their actions, instead of their victims being “responsible” for inciting, encouraging and tolerating abuse.
Learning signs of abuse and strategies to escape it are all well and good. Having a society that does not condone abuse is the step that needs to be taken. Having a society that does not blame the victim for getting in the way of someone else’s fist is a step that needs to be taken.
Having a society that teaches women from a young age to stand up for themselves is another dream I have. But when we do, we’re “angry feminists” or “activists” or whatever else is handy to tell women that they don’t know what they’re talking about and what is being said isn’t worthy of consideration.
Amanda, I don’t blame myself for the abuse; I blame myself for not standing up to the abuser. If I would have told her; “No more – you do not have the right to talk to me in that tone of voice; it will not be tolerated ever again”, and backed up my statement with action if necessary, it is my opinion that it might not have happened again. Of course, it continued and in the end the marriage failed. Would it have failed if I had stood up for myself? Probably, but years later after we divorced, I did tell her what I should have done and she was literally speechless and had the look of “a deer in the headlights”.
And, the dream you have is the same one I have; stand up for yourselves – everyone and everywhere. In some states, if there are charges of abuse and subsequently the charges are dropped by the victim, the state disallows that and takes over the continuation of the prosecution.
Again, I ask you as I did previously; would you see a client a subsequent time if he abused you in any way the first time? I think not and that has been my point (it seems unsuccessfully) through this whole thread; know that abuse is wrong and should not be tolerated – so don’t!
By not standing up to Hilter and instead trying to appease him,he became emboldened and look what happened. Neither murder and rape are not tolerated by society because we have laws that, for the most part, put murderers and rapist in jail or even execute them.
No where did I ever write that it is okay to murder, rape,or abuse anyone, any time or any place.
Below is a quote from your post:
“Otherwise, following your logic, every murder victim, every person exterminated by Hitler, every civilian caught in a war, every rape victim were all asking for it and contributing to their own harm. Bullshit.”
Show me where in anything I wrote that I stated or implied that all vitims were asking for it and contributing to their own harm. I have repeatedly stated that I condemn all forms of abuse and in ways you are unaware of am trying to help eliminate abuse.
BTW, according to the best available sources, the total civilian and military deaths in WWII was between 60-80 million world wide. Do you believe all those deaths were necessary when an assassin or a US Marine sniper could have eliminated both Hitler and Tojo before 1939. When no gov’t stopped either Hitler and Tojo, both were then emboldened and believed they could do as they pleased and no one was going to do anything about it.
Not one who was killed or died in WW II, including family and friends of the deceased, “were asking for it and contributing to their own harm. But, I will say that inactivity by the leaders of industrialized nations by their inactivity were enablers.
Hypothetical scenario: you were verbally and emotionally abused (God forbide there was any physical abuse) by a client on a 2-5 hour appointment. However before this one incident he had been a perfect gentlement, but because of his outburst you vowed never to see him again. What would be your price for time and companionship for a week with this man? $100,000? How about a $1 million? Place a value on your life and well being.
That is what I have been saying all along – put a stop to abuse and do what it takes to never allow it to happen again.
Believe it or not, I am a fan of yours and really enjoy this blog because of your various subjects and the conversation that ensues.
May I have your autograph…XOXO
Why are men 4 rent now not seen as a prostitue haven when money for sex is the only thing that they do.
It sounds like play on words, but it’s more about perspective, I think. I’m not really talking about blaming the victim, and I don’t think that Larry is either.
It’s about recognizing that things don’t happen in a vacuum and that all present in a situation are involved, whether aware of it or not. Only when completely aware can you make informed choices (like walking or fighting back), and only when you have choices can you be considered free.
So we’re talking about empowerment and progress through self-assessment.
Where I’m actually coming from on this (and I think that Larry’s analogy about nations letting Hitler do his thing without objecting is valid) is that einsteinian view of the universe as a place where no one can stand by and watch anything without affecting what they’re observing. There is no neutrality. As long as you are in this world, you are affecting it (like causing ripples in water), playing a part, and therefore bearing a form of responsibility for the outcome. Note that I’m not talking about legal accountability, which totally rests on the victimizer.
In a much narrower sense, I know that in every bad situation in my own life I ask myself what I did or said to cause it. The fact that others are out there trying to do harm is known. What interests me most is how to alter MY behavior to either stay out of their reach or defeat them. I can’t control the world, but I can (try to) control myself.
But I know that seeing the world as a place where everything is interconnected is scary. What most people end up doing is either burying their head in the sand (denial) or drawing lines in it (coming up with ways to see the “other” as foreign, different, and often evil). And this is what all the “isms” are about.
The world is one – I am you and you are me. Or, as Schopenhauer said, “[…] the world is hell, and men are on the one hand the tormented souls, and on the other the devils in it.”
Larry,
You have quite clearly said that the victim is responsible for their own abuse if they don’t put an immediate stop to the abuse the second they recognize it’s happening. My argument is that even if the abuse continues and the victim does not stop it, the abuser is still the responsible party.
I’m not arguing that inaction isn’t a decision, because it is. I’m simply arguing the responsible party is the abuser, not the victim.
Hobbyist,
What I just said to Larry.
And…shit happens in life. It happens to us all. When bad things happen to us, we usually make decisions that we think will prevent the situation from getting worse (I think that’s pretty normal). If we’re talking about deliberate abuse, not misfortune, the blame for the situation even occurring in the first place is with the abuser. Always.
The ripple effect years later doesn’t require anyone else heaping additional responsibility on the victim for what happened.
What you’re referring to is often described as victimizing the victim a second time, dragging them to court to testify, or to a therapist, and making them go through the trauma all over again, asking repeatedly what part they played and hinting that they had “something to do with it”.
It happens all the time, it’s cruel and unnecessary, and that’s why we must be careful with our choices of words, or even the decision to speak at all. Saying that one has played a part sounds dangerously like blaming them, as we see here.
Look, I’m a shit-magnet. 🙂 I have always been, and that includes when I was an unaware, “innocent” kid. And I did receive my share of “you asked for it”, whether talking about beatings, heartbreaks, or any other of life’s little gifts. The world didn’t revolve around me then, nor does it now. Fucked-up as it is, it was there first and will be there long after I’m gone. I’m stuck with ME and what I’m bringing into it.
So my attitude has long been: “what is going on around me, and what can I do differently so this never happens again?” It does require to relive some traumatic stuff, take it apart, understand the dynamics, and sort out what works and what doesn’t.
Any therapist worth his/her salt will tell you than blame only hurts the healing process. But they’ll also tell you that sweeping issues under the rug is not helpful either when progress and self-awareness are the goals.
Taking a long and truly honest look at oneself IS painful (some religions claim that it will make the uninitiated lose their sanity), otherwise more people would do it and we’d all live in a better world.
Avoiding pain at all cost, a natural tendency, is very much taking the path of least resistance, and a reason why so many things are crooked!
And I take it that you’re not a big fan of the Law of Karma that claims that no one is innocent, and that we all carry baggage from other lives, bad stuff that we are bound to pay for eventually and in the most mysterious ways…?
I’m not sure I’m buying it (could be a metaphor for genetics), but a benefit of this type of belief is that it at least forces you to examine your life and who you are, trying times or not, instead of chalking everything up to the unfairness and randomness of the world.
Is the butterfly responsible for the hurricane because it flapped its wings? Should it be told? Should it quit flying?
As for Larry, he just needs some sensitivity training is all! 🙂
Hobbyist,
While everyone is certainly responsible for examining their own lives; when it comes to victims of abuse, I’m quite willing to let them reach their own conclusions (or them and their therapist) in their own time. Me telling them “You should’ve…” or “You need to…” is NEVER helping the situation. They do plenty of this on their own — whether immediately or years later. It’s not my concern. My only concern is not making them feel any more like shit than they already do.
The views you and Larry hold are common ones and do not help. If everyone would go after the ABUSER with as much vehemence as they go after the “responsible” victim, we would live in a much better society.