[Probably opening a can of worms with this post, but it’s something I’ve wanted to say for a while.]
I’ve said it over and over again — escort work is about energy, creating a connection, entertainment and selling time, not sex. This is what I do for a living. Since I don’t work for a corporation, this is how I make my income. This is my job. It can involve sex, but not always. It always involves time, energy, conversation, and creating a connection. Always.
Many men have offered a friendly meeting for lunch or coffee. With rare exception — at my discretion, of course — I turn these offers down. Why? They aren’t offering to compensate me for my time and energy. It insults them that I wish to be paid for how I make my living. Yet what are they expecting? They expect me to show up well-groomed, well-dressed, to entertain and flatter, share my mind, my time, my energy. At the end of that time out of my day, I will be drained. They, on the other hand, will have gained. How is this a fair trade?
Some have tried to flatter me by telling me what great company I am. Yes, I know. That’s my job. That’s what I get paid to do. I make my income by selling my time and energy. Clients — who by definition pay me for my efforts — show respect for my time/energy by compensating me as I request. I always appreciate that.
My friend Holly Brooks* states is so well on her site:
While I always share a fond affection for my patrons, please do not ask me to meet you for any time without compensation, no matter how long we have known each other. This includes, “just a coffee” or “just lunch.” As a professional companion, people find me fascinating enough to invest in having my undivided attention for an allotted time– and what we do with that time or where we spend it has no bearing on how much the time costs. I get compensated for my time and company– that’s what I do for a living. Thank you for understanding and for not taking advantage of my time. 🙂
I offer a 1hr pick-my-brain session for both men and women over the age of 18. It’s compensated, of course, but it’s on the table for those who want to enjoy some personal time with me. And if you don’t think a conversation is personal attention, then these coffee/lunch offers wouldn’t be made in the first place.
Freud should’ve asked what men want
Men who want to spend time with a sex worker without sex (and without paying for her time), are an ironic contrast to men who take women out to dinner under the guise of dating and expect sex from her because they paid for dinner; even if it was very, very inexpensive.
76 thoughts on “what are you really paying for?”
I wonder how many people would ask their surgeon to remove a mole for free. Itâ€™s â€œjust a little mole.â€ How about a free house closing from their lawyer? When your time and expertise is your livelihood, you canâ€™t give them away anymore that Macyâ€™s can give out free suits.
Men who don’t understand this and participate in such behavior with companions constantly then wonder why some become embittered and snappy. Hmm, I wonder why? That is the type of male entitlement I tell feminists about when they believe that prostitution in any form props up male entitlement.
I literally busted out LOL at the “No relation” footnote. 😆
I, too, have turned down numerous “offers” for coffee (which I don’t even drink! lol) or other drink. When I refuse, it’s not uncommon at all that the guy gets really snippy and feels entitled to actually call me a whore or a bitch.
Part of the reason people ask is that it happens.
Friendships and off-the-clock time develop occasionally; and of course, it probably is the ultimate ego-trip for many who don’t fall into the “friends” category.
Given the above, I suppose the only advice to clients is indeed to never ask. And if the companion in question is open or wants to make an exception, s/he* will let you know.
*I honestly don’t know what pronoun to use to respectfully designate all the possible gender identities without writing an essay…
This happens in every profession. People ask me all the time to help them out with this or that even though it will take a couple of hours. Why? Because I’m good at it and they are not. Now my hourly rate is not as much as escorts charge, but I make a good living. I don’t think anybody should be insulted for being asked, nor should anybody be insulted for being refused.
Now for the escorts, just because someone asks you to lunch or dinner or coffee doesn’t mean they are not willing to pay. What I am curious about is when someone does ask you to coffee do you automatically assume that they don’t want to pay or do you tell them that you have a one hour minimum and give them your rate and then they back peddle and say they just wanted to meet for coffee for 15 minutes and not pay for you time?
Just remember no matter what we do for a living, in the end it’s our time that we are selling. So anytime you ask someone to help you out with something and you don’t pay them youâ€™re doing the exact same thing youâ€™re being critical about.
This wasn’t directed specifically at you Amanda, I’m just speaking generally about everybody.
People who ask for someone else’s talents, time and energy without compensation, very likely don’t value their OWN time enough to begin to know how to value someone else’s. Or they’re so self-centered they just don’t consider anything other than what they themselves want.
Robert, I get this ALL the time as a stripper and honestly I’m not easily offended but these requests really do bother me.
Amanda, I’m SO grateful you wrote this, and did it so perfectly. I’m going to link it to my blog b/c I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I am also really curious how does the purely social “pick-my-brain” rate mentioned work for you and how did you arrive at it.
I’ve been thinking about doing something like that a lot.
Indeed. No professional enjoys the PRESUMPTION about how they spend their time that some clients (or even non-clients) have. Presumption is always insulting, regardless of the specific situation.
Haven’t thought of it that way, but I’m laughing. I have a friend who compelled me to add in the very last paragraph. She has a LOT to say about men who pay for cheap dinners and expect great sex out of women who are looking for actual relationships. Another War of the Sexes thing.
Well, we really aren’t related! Didn’t want to confuse people in some way.
I guess, technically, if you value your time/energy that does indeed make you a whore or bitch. To men with that mindset. But what does it make a man who values his time/energy? Don’t think we have a word for that.
Very true. This is one case where the provider leads the dance. If she really wants to spend time off the clock, she’ll let her client know. They never need ask. (I give up on the pronoun thing for now.)
My litmus test for how far the “friendships” go: if I have to be “on” (in other words, do I have to stay in character the whole time?) then it’s work. If it’s work, then I should be compensated. Trying to explain that spending time with someone is “work” tends to insult them when it really shouldn’t.
My pick-my-brain offer has been good at scaring off the non-serious. So far that’s about it. But it might be the price point. Since I have 11 full days left in this country, my time is quite valuable to me. If I wanted to get serious about doing coffee dates, I might offer a 30, 60 and 90 minute sessions probably on a slightly lower price point. I’m really curious if a woman takes me up on it. I hope so at some point.
Thank you! I know every entertaining female in adult work gets this in some form or another. I’ve wanted to write about this since I started escort work (some men seemed to think I wanted to pay my rent in steaks from lunching with them). Can’t wait to see how YOU write about it!
Every profession does indeed get this. I’m totally aware of that. However, the insult comes because people generally do not view escorts as working professionals (in the true sense of the word) and that the only thing they’re paying for is sex. As I’ve said before, sex is easy. Spending the mental/emotional energy on someone is hard. Ask therapists.
I’ve yet to get an email from someone offering “coffee” or “lunch” who didn’t want to pay. They’re usually pretty up front about it and often get insulted when I try to politely ask for compensation (as I said earlier, I’ve gotten these emails from Day 1 — this is not a recent trend). Since I have to do every single thing I would normally do to prepare for an appointment, I don’t wish to do it without compensation — except when I do. There are always exceptions.
When I’ve openly asked for advice on here, it’s always voluntary. Those who wish to share, do. Those who don’t, don’t. I re-pay with my time/energy in correspondence. I do the same for other people who have asked me for help/advice or whatever (if I have something to offer). I give a HELL of a lot of my time/energy to others, which is why I never get on top of my own work. So when men come out of the blue and ASSUME they can do what they want with my schedule and obviously don’t realize my time is valueable to me, it rankles.
I fully agree that no one should be expected to give their time for free. I do think though that there is a fundamental difference with escort work and any other profession. What you charge for is spending time with someone, so you see that as them asking for a something for free when they ask to spend time with you outside of work. But this is what people do in our society when they want to get to know someone better. Should a masseuse that has a client that they have know for a year or two in the work environment be insulted when that client asks them out to lunch or dinner? I would say no, and the same is true for any other field of work. I guess my question is how do you know if someone is asking for free escort service time or just asking to spend time with you because they are interested in you and want to get to know you outside of work?
Does this make any sense to you? Forgive me if I am not expressing my thoughts clearly enough.
What your argument is forgetting is that from the perspective of the sex worker (or any service-oriented worker), is that if you’re a client, you stay a client. There is no “getting to know you better” outside of work — UNLESS both agree they want the relationship to go to that place. It doesn’t work if only the client wants it.
I’ve known many providers (including myself) who sometimes become good friends with their clients. And many (including myself) who have dated clients. In both situations, it’s best to let the provider make the first move. And many (including myself) have discovered that dating clients is usually a bad move.
Most sex workers have family, friends and a whole complete life beyond their work. It is a relatively rare thing for a client to be invited into that social circle because the client already exists in a defined relationship with the provider. Notice I said “invite”, not “he assumes he’s welcome.” Not only does it cross a lot of weird boundaries, lots of client-friends not a necessary thing for the sex worker’s happiness and well-being.
I can’t imagine my sister — a waitress and LMT — wanting to hang with anyone she meets at work. Why on earth would she want to? No matter how well I got to know my hairstylists and estheticians, I never wanted to hang with them beyond my appointment time. Why the hell would I want to? I develop very close relationships with them but I have no desire to push myself into their lives. I recognize they have lives and while Iâ€™m a part of their professional lives, their personal lives are no real concern of mine (and vice versa).
Guess it comes down to what I’ve already said: it’s the provider’s decision, not the client’s. A client can only choose to be a client or not, he cannot force himself into her personal life (aside from those who become stalkers). The dividing line between personal and professional is simple: does it feel like “work” to hang with this person? If so, it’s work and should be compensated. Trust me, there are plenty of dates I’ve gone on that felt like work and I wished I’d been compensated. Dinner is NOT compensation! (Civilian men seem to be in denial about this.)
PS: I’m sure this offends a lot of men, but really, that’s what a professional companion is — a professional companion. Just like any other professional.
I was not forgetting that once someone is a client they are always a client.
It just seems to me that the way the world works is that if you wish to get to know someone you ask them to spend time with you, weather it is a total stranger you just met in a bar or someone you ‘know’ a bit more because you see them every week at the restaurant you always go to. If you don’t really like approaching total strangers and you not supposed to t ask people you sort of ‘know’ to spend time with you, all you are left with is a dating service. And our society really does not work that way. I just don’t get why anyone would be offended if someone asks to spend time with them.
I understand no one should force their way in to someones life, and on one should be offended by not being allowed in to someones life, but what is the problem with someone asking politely?
Maybe I just don’t get it because I’m a man.
Back to the original point in my post….it’s insulting when it happens over (and over and over) not because the man wants to date me (I understand that), but when they ASSUME they’re only paying for sex and therefore don’t have to pay to spend non-sexual time with me. When they ASSUME that they’re a part of my personal life. When they ASSUME I can pay my rent in steak dinners (this is part of a memorably stupid conversation I had years ago) and prefer to do that instead of making my living. When they ASSUME that because I’m an escort I’m not really a professional who charges by time and therefore I have no reason to insist on making my income. I thought I made my point really clearly in the post, but I guess not. Other girls certainly got it!
That’s all very different from a client wanting to date. That’s just a mess, though generally they get insulted when I turn them down. No easy way around that one.
My comment above wasn’t trying to be about how offensive it was, only that it’s out of place and usually unwelcome unless the provider has made it clear she wants to date the client (usually by asking him out).
No, you never know until you ask, but once you ask it just makes everything go downhill from there. Instead of making a new relationship, you mess up a good one you already had. My $0.02 from a number of experiences.
Addendum to dating an escort:
It IS very insulting if the reason a guy wants to date an escort is because he thinks she’s so wonderful and charming, yet she can’t somehow find anyone to love her — he’s the only one he sees her true inner beauty. (Have gotten a number of email exchanges along these lines.)
It’s also insulting when he assume she has no other outlet for company, is lonely or otherwise pathetic. No one likes being pitied or rescued. (Also, experience speaking.)
And…though not insulting…just because an escort entertains you and has good sex with you does not mean she wants to date you, marry you, have your kids, meet your family, etc. To be honest, civilian men have the most difficulty with the concept of string-free sex. It’s enough to make me wonder if men are really as capable of one-night stands as they’re made out to be.
I understand being insulted because of the reasons you just gave, if you know that is why they are doing it. It is also understandable to be insulted if the same person keeps asking even after you have explained it to them. I guess the problem I am have is understanding the ‘insult’ simply because it happens over and over with different people. Annoyed I could understand.
It just seems to me that this is a natural consequence of you doing your job well. You are have having intimate meetings with people and trying to figure out what they like, or what they would like from you. Its not surprising to me that some men will want to spend more time with you, but probably can afford to pay to see you once or twice a week. They probably also think you like them, because you are good at your job, so they ask.
Again maybe I don’t get it because I’ve never been an escort or a stripper, and being a man I have had to be the one to always do the asking when I wanted to spend time with someone. So I see things from a different point of view. I must be missing something.
I just don’t understand why your initial response to someone asking would be something like, “Sure, I have a 1 hour minimum for coffee, 2 hours for lunch, and 4 hours for dinner.” Why would the question generate any unpleasant feelings? Unless you know they are asking for the reasons you stated above, like I said that is understandable for you to be insulted.
Ouch! Duly noted 🙂
As I said — at my discretion. If I say I will meet someone for a drink I will. Though I don’t think I’m going to say WHEN anymore!
I don’t think there is anything else I can say. I’ve covered the topic as well as I can. Go back and re-read what I’ve said — your questions are already answered. There are more issues to go into: balance of power, social/gender expectations, issues around dating, issues around sex work as work and probably more little tangents I haven’t thought of. But I don’t feel like writing a book on what was a really simple post. It’s taking too much of my time/energy!
Sorry for taking up your time.
I had to read this a couple times to make sure of what you meant. It certainly appears that the situations you’re describing mainly occur with existing or prospective clients, in which case I pretty much agree with you that its out of place and out of line. I think enough of why has already been said.
From the other side of the coin, I can affirm what you said that if a sex worker wants to offer something extra or outside a client/provider relationship, she will let you know. I don’t say this to brag, but because it is only the true result of a somewhat unique situation and what I learned (often through my own mistakes) from much experience. I have declined most of the various offers I’ve gotten, because as you well said, just because someone is decent company and sex for a short time, doesn’t mean you will want to extend it. And if you do find each other’s company more enjoyable than that, it should be pretty obvious. On the other hand, the one time I did pursue a sex worker for something beyond, I persisted past her first attempts to put me off and succeed very well. Go figure.
I will be interested to know how your brain-picking hour offer works out. In this area, there is a small industry somewhat similar in that it offers female companionship to men, but without sex. The main difference is that the drink is liquor, not coffee. The women are usually younger and the men older; the women usually dilute their drinks or discreetly sip them slowly (like a strip club, right?); it is not cheap, but is a steady business; sometimes karaoke is part of the deal. It is often a choice for women who do not want to have sex with clients; they make less in this business than a good sex worker, but are still well-compensated (of course, the time and energy they put in effects what they take out). There is also a smaller, mirror industry where the paid companions are younger men, and the clients are women, some younger, some older.
Thank you for sharing. I’d say your one exception to the rule kind of proves the rule! And generally, if it is to be — she will let you know.
Usually, when a place waters down the girls’ drinks it’s not well thought-of. But understandable if drinking is part of her job! As long as men understand what they go to those clubs for, I’m betting it’s very good work for the ladies (though certainly still work). It’s certainly something I would like to try at some point. A true test of skill!
The pick-my-brain offer is doing it’s job of keeping away the non-serious. 🙂
LOL, fair enough. Thanks Amanda 🙂
To all you clients you have to understand that a working girl is about getting paid and it is what it is. Time is money even coffee or dinner. But when I see some of the girls on here say they get offended when a client tries to see them for dinner without paying them, well then you know she has a issue or problem. How can a escort get mad at a client for getting caught up in the movie or fantasy she is selling and him asking her to go for coffee. Well I will tell you why she gets offended. You see most of these women shouldn’t be in the biz. They are very anti-man and yes they hide it very well but you can tell how they really are with their little comments like the one about them getting offended being asked to go for coffee. A lot of these anti-man providers are indies and don’t have a man who is their significant other. Most of the ones with anti-man attitudes have no man or are engaged in a lesbian relationship with another female provider who shares the same anti-man attitude and sentiment. You see a woman in the biz who has a man is going to have respect for men even if it is a client who has a weakness for her. She won’t get offended because she is a professional and is getting paid. She also knows that a client if disrespected or mistreated can go bad and is a man who is bigger and stronger and can physically hurt her even kill her. So she shouldn’t get offended just be honest and tell him the truth that she has to get paid for her time that she is sorry even though she is flattered with his dinner invitation but she has to politely refuse his generous invitation UNLESS she is paid for her time. Even though she may enjoy his personal company it is still a business relationship first and foremost and she must occasionally remind him of this truth. So beware of providers with anti-man attitudes they are nothing but problems, they don’t like men and are extremely selfish. The biz would be better if they were all run out of the biz!
Where is your blog? I’d like to preach to you a bit just as you are doing here. As the old saying goes, “If you don’t have something nice to say…shut up!”
If you can’t say something nice, then don’t say anything at all. Your assumptions have no basis in reality and I would suggest you get some help for your delusions. Maybe then you won’t see independent women as anti-man just because they don’t like you.
I don’t totally agree with everything Count is saying but he does have some valid points. Not every indy is anti-man and he never said all indies are anti-man but quite naturally the providers that are anti-man are going to be indies and obviously not have a man as their SO. Sure a good share of these anti-man providers are also going to be in a lesbian relationship.
This profession is always going to attract some anti-man women. These women better be able to be good actresses and hide their anti-man attitudes or they will starve but most of them seem to be great actresses. Now you also have great providers who really, truly like men like yours truly.
I hate to say this but the majority of the indies I have talked to and interacted with have some strong anti-man ways and feellings. They don’t seem to hate men but they certainly don’t like or respect men in general. Also they share these sentiments stronger, privately and secretly among themselves more so than on public forums that men and clients can read LOL. That wouldn’t be good for business to bash men and clients on a public forum even though I have seen them do it from time to time.
I do agree that you have to let a client know he has to pay you for your time whether that time is spent in bed or spent in Starbucks sipping espresso. But don’t get insulted for him asking. Just use a little tact and diplomacy explaining your rules. Personally if I have a regular who spends 40K a year on me I don’t mind going for espresso with him for a half hour or so with no compensation a couple of times a year. I even bought two of my best regulars cologne for Christmas. These are exceptions to the rule mind you and what I consider good business practices for me. Just set your rules and don’t get upset if a client needs for you to state and explain your rules in a pleasant manner.
As a non-bi-sexual and non-lesbian, I hardly think I’m anti-man. I don’t know many sex workers that are actually anti-man — men pay our bills.
As for being insulted, well, most people have no tact when they ask for something in any situation. I believe the definition of charm is getting what you want without having to ask for it. Someone who simply feels they have the right to determine what my time is worth is not charming. And when it happens over and over again, I lose my sense of humor about it. That’s me.
I’ve talked to enough sex workers to know that although we all make exceptions, very very few have the tolerance for those who ASSUME they are the exception and act that way. I thought I wrote very clearly on this but apparently not. Though strangely, other business professionals got it!
Amanda I never said you were anti-man nor gay LOL. But just because men pay our bills doesn’t mean we can’t be anti-man, pro-man or somewhere in the middle.
It is great to meet people or a client who has charm, class, finess and people skills. But some people haven’t developed these attributes. So long as a client doesn’t verbally disrespect me or I feel physically threatened or intimidated I do not get insulted or irked at his lack of tact, grace or charm.
Some clients have money and style, some have money and no style. Some guys have a wife, girlfriends etc. and have relationships with women with ease. Seeing a escort is just a new adventure to them. Then you got the guy who is a failure with women so he calls one of us and it our job to make him feel like a winner. He will be awkward and might say silly things but deep down he means no harm.
I say be a professional, have a little tolerance and even some compassion with clients. After all you get paid for this. This job can be easy and it can be hard also. But it is a job that needs to be done right. Just stick to your rules, let him know your rules and don’t get mad if tries to test you, just lay the law down but control your emotions at all times to the best of your ability. Also when the clients and the biz get to you do take a well deserved vacation.
Escorts are what every man needs in life. They make life simple, no complications for a great date and possible romance afterwards!!
Also, this post wasn’t aimed at most clients. Clients generally understand these things. It was aimed at those who never want to be clients yet still think they can spend time with me for free (usually couched as “they don’t want sex”). Few clients assume I want to just “hang out” and most seem to appreciate the boundaries of the professional relationship. With very rare exception I’m quite fond of my clients!
It was a post of frustration that has been building for years.
You are so right on this one!
Great post Amanda! It truly is about the time, energy and connection and I couldnâ€™t agree more with your post.
Girls get it! I never have to explain this concept to ya’ll.
This is a little off topic but I had a great time with an escort the other night and he tells me over email that service is free from now on. Does this person have a connection with me? Sorry I am just a little confused.
That’s unusual but I guess he likes you? Up to you if you want to go down that path. That he still refers to it as a “service” instead of trying to form a relationship with you is odd to me, but then, I’m female. We probably approach these things differently than a man. Or maybe he just thinks you’d make a great booty call. Or…he’s playing a game of obligation with you.
Let me be a contrarian here and highlight a category of ‘workers’ (hobbyists) who provide their services for free : open source software developers. The Linux operating system, Apache Group’s software products such as their webservers, MySql, PHP, python, perl, and tons of other great quality software products which took lot of passion, toil, thoughtful design and effort have been given away for free without charging a dime. Charities, NGO, Red Cross and others also give away lot of their services for free.
Just like food, dress and shelter, and basic healthcare, a man needs certain necessities to survive. Sex is one of them. What if a guy is so ugly and / or introverted that he can never get dates or a long term relationship with any slightly attractive woman at all ? What if he is also poor that he cannot pay Â£150 to Â£200 an hour ? Should he be forced to starve and die without any sex at all ? I can afford Â£150 occasionally but I want to spend at least 2 to 3 hours a day with a lovely woman times 30 days a month – do the math – only the very rich can afford Â£15,000 a month without going broke.
Think about it. Governments preach a lot about socialism, haves/havenots, distributive taxation and other Leftists messages, but good sex/relationship is also a form of wealth. And there is massive inequality here with typically the “bad boy” type macho guys getting more than 1 good looking woman. Yet, nobody addresses this “inequality”.
Paid companionship is a luxury, not a priviledge or a right. If a sex worker wants to donate their time/energy to someone else, that’s their business and their personal decision. But by and large, this is our job, our income and for anyone to ASSUME they deserve us to do our jobs for free is in the wrong.
I spend a hell of a lot of my free time online. This blog is open-source time with Amanda. Meeting me in person is not. It’s really simple.
I’m not sure how you feel this equates to some sort of inequality with ugly men vs jerks. The vast majority of my clients are married men who don’t want messy affairs to ruin their marriage (and I can’t blame them). The vast majority of any sex worker’s clients are married. Marriage is the single biggest factor in determining if a man will become a client — at least as far as I can tell. If it weren’t for marriage, we’d all be out of business in a week.
“…Then you got the guy who is a failure with women so he calls one of us and it our job to make him feel like a winner. He will be awkward and might say silly things but deep down he means no harm…”
I don’t think I am a *failure* with women exactly, I’m just incredibly shy. And I work a lot. Like, *really* a lot. So I’m too busy to establish a real relationship with a girlfriend. Yeah, thats it. 😉 But yes..I’m incredibly awkward, I say stupidly silly things, and yet I cherish *every single moment* I spend with the escorts that I have met.
Yes, I pay them to be nice to me – and to allow me to experience the things that I am missing in ‘real life’…and I don’t begrudge one thin dime of that money. I know it must be a tough job to be so nice to me, and the fact that certain ladies are able to get by my faults, get over my weaknesses, get over what makes me unattractive….and yet still make me feel like a King…
Well, that’s priceless. Thank you, ladies…thank you SO much for the good feelings! 🙂
I’m glad you have positive experiences with escorts and just enjoy us for what we try to do for you!
Heehee, thanks Amanda, to guys like me…I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that Providers are Angels who should be cherished, rewarded, and valued above most all others. 🙂
…and to JS:
“… What if a guy is so ugly and / or introverted that he can never get dates or a long term relationship with any slightly attractive woman at all ? What if he is also poor that he cannot pay Â£150 to Â£200 an hour ?…”
Well, I guess that guy better go get motivated, get a job, and pay what such blessings from women are really WORTH.
Either that, or become a Democrat…. 😉
â€œâ€¦ What if a guy is so ugly and / or introverted that he can never get dates or a long term relationship with any slightly attractive woman at all ? What if he is also poor that he cannot pay Â£150 to Â£200 an hour ? Should he be forced to starve and die without any sex at all?”
Well, in my personal and humble opinion…
Then the guy needs to stop being an entitled hypocrite and stop seeking women on the basis of how attractive they are. Some equally “ugly and/or introverted” woman will gladly have sex and/or relationship with him.
And you have a sense of humor! 🙂
This is also a good point.
Attractiveness is very subjective but in general…if you’re an older, out of shape guy who wants to date 20yr old models…no, it probably isn’t going to happen. If you’re someone who is quite willing to date based on personality, you stand a much better chance of finding what you’re seeking. (If you’re terminally-shy, paid companionship is probably your best option until you gain confidence.)
Guys like the ones described by JS (and I’m guessing JS himself, hence the frustration) fit the Nice Guy (TM) trope to a T. As Thais said, “Then the guy needs to stop being an entitled hypocrite and stop seeking women on the basis of how attractive they are.” Exactly. He gets to look and act however he likes (usually sloppy, boorish and unappealing) but the woman he “deserves” and pursues damn well better make Megan Fox look like a troll. Of course when said attractive woman doesn’t return his favors (as is his due, naturally!) then she’s a “bitch”.
Pathetic, second-string, beta male attitudes such as those is why said guys will never get the type of women they want, not for any other reason. And as a geeky woman (who can put on a one-woman show of the entire Star Wars Saga), I am so sick of hearing my het, male fellow geeks complain about how boring their “MTV pretty” skinny, tanorexic girlfriend is yet they pursued no other type of woman… ie. geeky girls like me who fall way outside of that purview. Then they go onto bitch about how girls only like “jerks”, holding my tongue to prevent snarking back, “If that was the case, why did your girlfriend dump you?”
Again, this proves my point about entitlement that I railed against on my blog.
My opinion is that truly nice guys (i.e. decent human beings), don’t have to go around whining about how nice they are. They get the partners they fully deserve. There just aren’t very many of them around (and many, many are married).
I remember one man in an interview said he’s the type of guy who deserves to get a woman he doesn’t deserve. I think that about sums it up.
In the future, don’t hold your tongue. If you feel like telling these jerks that they’re jerks, just say it. Not like it’s going to impede your changes of dating them or like you care.
What’s your entitlement post? I’m looking for it. Post a link!
Aspasia & Amanda,
I like your story about the jerks – very interesting. But your comment about self-entitlement is just spot-on. I think all of the attitudes and problems JS exemplifies come straight from that. I would ask why in the hell people think the world owes them something, but when people are brought up that way, its very almost impossible to shake them out of it. Be hard-headed, learn the hard way. If the most essential things in life don’t aren’t free, how could anyone be simply entitled to extras like sex, especially paying for a companion? Its no different from saying “I don’t want to eat sandwichs all the time. I like sushi, and even though I can’t afford it, I should be able to eat it everyday because I like it and others can afford to eat it as they please”. Or, “I love basketball; I want to play in the NBA. I don’t have the talent that others have, but I want to do it, so I deserve the chance”. If people weren’t born with the natual advantages that others were, they need to take a hard look at themselves, their situation and what they want, make some hard choices, and put in some hard work. But most people won’t do that. The kicker is that most successful people only get what they want after putting in hard work, whether they have talent or not. Talent or good looks are just a more advantageous starting point.
And this kind of attitude is even more offenseive when applied to relationships and sex since there is another person involved. He talks about women as though they are pieces of meat to be doled out, not his fellow human beings. If he thought for one second to see the situation from a woman’s perspective, he might start to realize why women don’t want to offer themselves to his ravaging whenever he wants it.
What really made me laugh about JS’s comments are that after displaying his own sense of entitlement, and how he deserves something without earning it, he whines about “socialism” and government aid. If that isn’t an oh-so common, hypocritical republican attitude, I don’t know what is.
I completely agree! There are so many things in life that I want that I know I cannot have and probably will never have. Including many people I am attracted to. Just because I desire it doesn’t mean that I am entitled to it. But hey, that’s what an active fantasy life is for. And good call catching the complaint against socialism from JS because I missed that part! You know what’s even more frightening about that is that someone like JS thinks access to sex with whomever they choose whenever they choose is the same as access to food. Yeah, kinda different.
Here are the posts: For Cara at the F-Word, Dear Asshole, and A Tale of Entitlement. I’m definitely not going to hold my tongue next time. That particular incident was a few years ago and I haven’t been around that crowd in a while.
It is entitlement. Spot on commentary, especially when you kindly pointed out that we’re talking about people here, not objects. LOVED the comment about being Republican!! Ha!
I’ve always said that a paid companion is a luxury item. Even if she charges $50 for her time, it’s still a luxury and not a right. Most men don’t get it when I tell them (especially if they’re men who don’t like how much I charge).
Thanks for the links. Good reading!
Yes, there are many things in this world I want and though it would be really sweet to have it handed over on a silver platter, the vast majority of it I have to earn myself (even if I complain during the earning process). That’s just life.
If it’s that simple, why don’t more people get it?
Maybe because people feel it’s deceptively simple? I dunno.
I randomly wandered in to this part of the Internet to make a few comments, and decided to randomly wander back in to see how things have developed. Interestingly, of course…cool! 🙂
To Aspasia, I would say – I am sympathetic to you…whether or not you personally are looking for a ‘traditionally attractive alpha male’ I think that it is important to point out that non-alpha geeky males (like myself) desire many things as well…but mostly we are too scared to reach out and make them happen.
On the one hand, we desire companionship, friendship, closeness, warmth, understanding, and sex (I would have put sex first, but then you would think I was a stereotypical male. But of course, sex is *always* first…no matter WHAT we say. Sorry, gotta be a truthful lil piggie… 😉
But on the other hand, at least for me, there is a barrier of extreme shyness that will *always* be present. It doesn’t matter if you are the tanned’n’toned unattainable cheerleader fantasy lady, or the honest ‘normal looking’ geeky, intelligent, caring, gem-in-the-rough lady. See…it doesn’t matter which camp you fall in…nice guys in my psychological grouping will basically never EVER be able to meet you, hold an intelligent conversation with you, let alone BE with you, becuase…well. We be SHY.
So if there is any advice across this vast and impersonal gulf of the Internet it is to perservere with your target-males. (should you be so-attracted) Be aggressive, be outgoing, be forward….you would be surprised at how many of your hetero-geeky-friends would truly and even DESPERATELY want to be with you…if only you were to break down their barriers of shyness. The barriers that tell them they are not the kind of guy *any* woman would want.
Its tough, I know myself how tough, but to the few ladies who have the guts to try and break those barriers down….well, who knows. There are still ‘Nice Guys’ just waiting for their Lady to come in the door.
(Well, OK, so physically busting down the door, and tieing them outright to the bed is probably more like the requirement…but hey…psychology can be a brutal thing to work through sometimes… 😉
You exemplify what I always say: human needs are the same regardless of gender. We ALL want someone special who likes us, wants to have sex with us, listens to us and is our partner. Getting it is where we all run into problems.
I’m also very shy in real life. I often see guys I find appealing (for whatever reason) but rarely approach them because I know that just because I find someone appealing doesn’t mean they’re going to like me. And because I never approach them, I never know, do I?
Getting over shyness is tough. Rejection sucks. Sometimes it’s good to go beyond those comfort zones and make the first move. I don’t do it often, but it’s never as bad as I think it will be when I DO make the move. Having a group of supportive friends as backup never hurts either.
Indeed, its the ‘finding’ thats the hard part, eh? 🙂 Shyness, fear, rejection….a vicious circle in the making.
It brings me back to the original topic – money for time – and it really reinforces it. The time I have spent with escorts has been really valuable in both a sexual experience realm, as well as the psychological.
From a sexual perspective, I have received both sincere advice (and practical experience) from my ladies on what to do, what not to do…how to do it…the whole gamut. Hey, to a guy who doesn’t *have* such experience…how does one expect us to acquire the advice and guidance of the very sex we are trying to please, eh?
And from a psychological perspective, the time spent ‘pillow-talking’ on subjects that I would otherwise just keep to myself is by itself worth the price of admission. To say nothing of the little incremental increases in my own self-confidence. I am still a ways from ‘being there’, but I can certainly say that there is a spring in my step for days after a visit….and yes, that confidence has manifested itself in conversations with ladies with whom I would otherwise not have had the guts to speak to.
A cliche, I suppose, but the escorts I have been with have been the best therapists I have ever been with. Maybe I’m just lucky, but thats the reality for me. 🙂
We are therapists. No doubt about it. 🙂
I’m glad you understand! I don’t generally set out to find alpha males, at least not the stereotypical ones. But I’ve found that I simply cannot be in a relationship where my extremely geeky proclivities are seen as something “weird”. The Shy Guys you described, such as yourself, I know of and yet I’ve never seen that misogynistic “Nice Guy” streak in them. My “brother” Ricardo was like that but he was never, ever an asshole but he eventually found the woman of his dreams who he married and has a 2-year-old daughter with via their shared geekitude.
I can be shy in some situations but I’ve gotten over that to an extent as Amanda can attest to. I’ve become maternal almost in my approach to people, especially in large groups, and I introduce myself, especially to someone who looks as though they feel out of place and I want to make sure they’re comfortable and having a good time. Most of the time, now that I think about it, the only situations in which I can be described as reserved is when I’m around people who I think will be easily offended by my non-normative views on almost everything!
And I always put sex first! 🙂
It was great talking to you, Juan.
Heehee, I’m getting rather on in years…but you should have seen how hard it was to ‘share ones geekitude’ with other like-minded folks back when I was a kid. Say, the late 70’s/early 80’s. With the rise of the Computer, at least those who exhibit geeky proclivities have increased in direct proportion. The odds just keep getting better! 🙂
“… I introduce myself, especially to someone who looks as though they feel out of place and I want to make sure theyâ€™re comfortable and having a good time…”
Now thats good to hear – Good on you!
I try and do the same thing when I can – its a pleasure to find someone at the fringes of an event with the “oh gawd why am I here, I should just go home!” look on their face…and then to draw them out and see if a smile can be placed there instead. 😉
Oddly enough, my shyness only really manifests itself with ladies…or more specifically ladies I am attracted to. I do large-group seminars for work, and am often out at functions, cocktail parties, and the like…and I doubt that anyone would think I had such a problem with shyness. If I’m not in love, or love-interested, I can be a pretty gregarious guy.
Talk about your Curse of Sisyphus.
I’m sorry I hadn’t spotted this post before. My views are not totally allied to yours here and I think I need to compose a detailed response so, with your permission, I will post a response on my blog referencing yours
To cut to the chase though; no-one should do a job that they don’t enjoy. Different people doing the same job may get job satsfaction in different ways. For you I suspect this means being respected and valued as a person and not just a sex object. I also suspect you would be happy in your job if you were dealing with a client that didn’t treat you in this way. In some cases that type of client may feel that he is also making a positive contribution to the time you spend together
As long as he feels that he has bought an experience that provides him with value, you feel that you have been properly compensated for the experience that you have provide, and you both feel that the shared experience met mutual expectations, then both parties are happy. It doesn’t matter one iota that the part of the experience that he feels he has paid for is not the same as the part of the experience you feel deserves compensation
… and I hope I haven’t just lost a friend
Sorry, the”would” in the second para should, of course, be “wouldn’t”
You’re totally right. As long as both parties feel satisfied with what occured, then it was good.
What this post was talking about were men who tried to take without giving. If I’m hanging with my friends, then I’m taking/giving equally (I hope — we all have moments where it’s more one or the other). When I’m with someone who not only isn’t giving as I need but is taking as well — then there’s no point in being in their company.
For the record, it doesn’t matter to me if a guy thinks he’s paying for the freedom to suck my left toe. As far as I’m concerned, he’s still paying for my time/energy because that’s what I’m giving (and rights to my left toe). If I took away my time/energy and only gave him access to my left toe, he’d feel cheated. Clients pay for my time/energy — whether they’re fully aware of this or not.
PS: No, you haven’t lost a friend 🙂
I need help understanding something – why do men think it is okay to see an escort who is 50 years younger? Using an escort is one thing but using on that is so much younger concerns me. What do 20-something escorts REALLY think about having sex (or the man may try to have sex) with someone that much older? I’m sorry but a 70+ man having sex with a 22-year old almost seems like a form of ‘pay to rape’ to me. I’m not against age-appropriate escorts. A guy I’m considering getting involved with does use girls, literally, 50 years younger. He lies about it to me. I’m very concerned and really need advice,
You asked two questions in there: “why do men think” it’s OK, and “what do 20-something escorts really think” about it.
I can’t answer the second question, but I am a guy who’s (ah) getting up in years. So maybe I can help with your first one. Disclaimer: I’m “a” guy, not *your* guy. *shrug* Maybe he and I think completely differently about things. But here are a few of my thoughts:
#1: IMHO, his lying about this is a Bad Thing and a Bad Sign. In the long term, honesty is better even if one of you doesn’t t like the message.
#2: Regarding the “age” matter:
I’m not in my 70s — yet. But — for me — the thing that usually disqualifies barely-legal girls is their conversation. From my perspective, they usually haven’t lived very long or thought about very much, so they usually have little to say that interests me.
That might be good-enough for a 5-minute quickie (with price to match), but it is certainly not what I would expect of an escort of Amanda’s calibre.
That said, if she’s in her 20s, with the liveliness and energy of a 20-something, and if she is also mature enough in mind and heart to hold up her end of a pleasant evening *before* going behind the bedroom doors — someone like Amanda, or like some of the other ladies who have posted here– then why not?
Perhaps this feels a little threatening. After all, this man is someone you said you are thinking of getting involved with. Might he prefer these young girls to you?
If “involved” means, potentially, years of domestic bliss — spending those years together could be a very different thing from having a pleasant evening like that. For example:
My wife and I will be celebrating our 20thy anniversary in a few months. We married when I was 40 and she was 31. (Life begins at 40!) That’s close enough, given where we were/are in age, that we’ve had *enough* shared cultural history (as well as our shared interests and so forth) to help us continue to communicate over months and years of constant contact.
Am I likely to have that kind of connection with someone in her early 20s? Nope, and that’s why I probably wouldn’t marry one. But a pleasant evening? With a consenting adult?
If we assume (for the sake of this discussion) that doing this would not hurt my wife– from my (a guy’s) point of view, why not?
The real question is, why would *she* want to try to have a pleasant evening with a dried-out old guy? 🙂
And that question, of course, I’m *not* equipped to answer. 😀
I’m not really sure why it matters. He’s paying for a lot of things — a big one is the fantasy aspect. If the 20yr old escort is happy with her job and the arrangement she makes with him — why does it concern you?
Youth is beauty. Youth isn’t always brains, heart or anything else. There’s nothing wrong with paying for beauty. That’s why I enjoy art museums instead of trying to draw in my sketchbook.
If you wonder whether or not she gets sexual pleasure from him — if he’s good in bed and they have chemistry — yes, it’s entirely possible. If you’re wondering if his worn exterior turns her on as her beauty does him — probably not.
Good point about his honesty or lack of it! THAT’S the biggie! Not the age gap or the “what do they do in bed?” thing.
His expectations for his real partners is also an issue. Can he separate his fantasy play-time from his real life?
“Expectations” — yes, another good one.
Will our unnamed Old Guy expect Edna to (1) behave and/or (2) look like these younger ladies? (I think that’s where you’re going with the “separate his fantasy play-time from his real life” thing — by all means, correct me if I’m wrong.)
Here’s another one: Will he expect Edna to let him continue to play with these younger ladies, after they become “involved”?
But also from the other direction:
Edna, if you do decide to get involved with this guy, would you expect him to stop playing with them (and, perhaps, with any other ladies)?
Are you thinking, perhaps, “He’d be wonderful if it weren’t for what he’s doing with those young chickies. Are they giving him something I wouldn’t be able to give him — or can I be so engaging that he’ll stop going to them?”
All these are choices that you and he are free to make; I’m not going to be negative on any of them. However I would encourage you to see him as he is, right now — not as he might be, if he would let you mold his clay into the shape you like.
Because he might not let you. Especially if he’s in his 70s — his character and personality are probably pretty-well established, by now. He might be beyond the point where he might be a lady’s fixer-upper project. He might be a package deal. And you may have to decide whether the “bad parts” of the package outweigh its “good parts.”
You hit it. Yes, what are Old Guy’s and Edna’s expectations of each other? Only they can answer that, hopefully honestly.
It’s one thing to offer an idea to try and open someone’s mind. It’s quite another to try and “change” someone. People change to suit themselves — no one else (if they ever do change).
Anyone seen the Seinfeld episode where Jerry is dating a masseuse? He’s dying to get a massage from her, especially the day when she brings her table to his place after work. But she does this for a living and is not interested in giving it away for free, even to a boyfriend…
Amanda, in that last line of your entry, I do see a thread: men equate money with sex when in the company of women. They just think that if every time they want sex it will cost them (one way or another, and it just does)… it should follow that no request for sex will cause no request for money.
They’re wrong, of course, as a gentleman knows that:
1. A lady is always right, and…
2. A gentleman always pays
Let me ask you then: when a provider asks ME out, should I still pay? My answer to this is YES. See #2. Like freebie offers, I take that as the compliment that they are and politely insist on reaching for my wallet. 😉
Things get easier when one realizes that sex is ALWAYS on a man’s mind, and COMPENSATION on a woman’s. I’m not sure who is entitled in all of this…
Don’t actors often have flings with each other on set, and end up parting ways after the shoot? They are professionals who pretend for a living and sell fantasy, and YET they still get confused and act on fake feelings.
I think its very human and a risk of sex work to have people lose perspective after a good time and forget that EVERY interaction is strictly professional.
I have to keep remembering that, like a cop or a priest, a sex worker is never off the clock.
And that was Alfred Camus who gave this great definition of charm that you used, Amanda. I think about it a lot and do my best to keep things unsaid with women (especially pros, that I never question) because of it, and… it’s not always easy for a man. 😉
Good reply…except when it comes to wanting a relationship. There the “compensation” should be an equal exchange of emotion/respect. It’s hard to find. Even harder when starting out at the provider/client point. Things get murky fast.
Girls have it hard in this situation too. They never want to offend, they don’t want their bills to be unpaid, they don’t want to be hurt or taken advantage of. I see these issues a lot. It’s tough waters to navigate because we also question the reality of our feelings for a client.
None of it is pretty or easy. However…men do sometimes bring things on themselves when assuming WAY too much on something that wasn’t offered in the first place. What this post was about.
I hear you on the “exchange” thing. I was simplifying for clarity, but I think that although men and women come from different places, they hope to meet half-way (where they can share a mutually-satisfying exchange).
I also think that the balance is hard to maintain, if it was there to begin with, and it’s why most types of relationships eventually crumble. One party always ends up putting in more than the other and getting the short end of the stick.
But that’s beyond the scope of your post, as you said. I discussed peripheral stuff because your main point was bothering me, but I felt as dense as Robert and didn’t see what I could contribute.
I’ve ranted myself about folks walking up to me and expecting free coaching (I’m moderately successful in a profession with many applicants and few working people). So I do know where the frustration comes from. I share advice liberally and in controlled venues (like industry boards), but refuse to be at the mercy of anyone who requires guidance, and have hurt a few feelings that way.
But for a man, it IS a hurdle to understand why a social drink with a woman (even if she does market social companionship) cannot be separated from work.
After giving it some thought, I think I get it, however. Escorts are entertainers. And I’ve seen first hand how entertainers can be the constant targets of harrassment. Because people confuse private person with public persona and clearly violate their idol’s boundaries by acting like fans. Fans somehow think they “own” an artist they love because they paid for a few shows… and we all know they really don’t. I think it’s a form of entitlement, as the point has been raised here before.
So some entertainers are more or less gracious all around, others real jerks in private, but they ALL feel the burden of fame and prefer to be left alone UNLESS they have invited the attention, like while performing.
Regardless of this understanding, I know that it’s always been a let-down for me to witness a Mr. Nice Guy on screen or stage tell people to fuck off. They break “character” and I never see them the same way. The public, like many men in presence of women, can be like kids – demanding and annoying, but their bad manners are kinda… innocent.
For an escort, I think that a patient explanation is the best response to unwanted offers and attention. If they don’t get it they can then go to hell. lol
But then, I’m not an escort.
For the record, I’m not speaking from experience but solidarity with my less perceptive fellow hobbyists.
I’ve been in a few confusing situations with providers, usually when they said something or made an offer that took me aback, and have always reverted to “it’s business” as a defense mechanism. I certainly didn’t want a suddenly enlarged… ego to put me in a position to be rejected.
As you know we do have fragile egos (the armor is on the outside)… 🙂
I also hear you on the girls having a rough deal. I’ve seen them struggle not to ask burning questions (providers know about boundaries) or with the fear of being rejected because of what they do (most live with the stigma). But we were talking about what men are paying for, not what women are selling, eh?
Patient explanations often lead to insulted or hurt feelings no matter what. Men take these things personally when they shouldn’t be in this grey area to begin with. It’s ALWAYS a mess.
This post is about men NOT wanting to pay for what they should pay for. It IS about what we’re selling, which is our time/energy. This is the thing so many men don’t seem to think they need to pay for, hence where all the tension comes into play.
My take on this is: you pay for my time/energy, the sex is free.
Can’t believe I called Albert “Alfred” (Thanks for pretending not to notice)!
You really brought the crazies out of the woodwork with this post. I couldn’t read through them because they quickly became tiresome, but I think I got the gist of it. You get paid to spend time with people. Some people ask you to do it for free, which is not cool. Asking a massage therapist to lunch is not the same because they are selling massages, not their company. Asking a massage therapist for a free massage would be akin to asking an escort for free companionship. If you had a private nurse for a sick family member, and called her up on her day off to ask if she’d stop by for a few minutes while you ran errands, what do you think her reaction would be? “Yes, of course, let me put my own plans aside so I can go do my job for free. It’s only a short while.” Not on your life. She’d remind you it’s her day off and that you need to pay her. People are capable of understanding when something is being asked for without compensation. Understanding isn’t jumping to conclusions. Next. Women who want to be paid to do their job are angry, man hating lesbians? And because some people develop open source software, or volunteer, escorts should have sex with ugly poor men because it is as essential to survival as food and shelter? I couldn’t read more than that, all logic was gone by then. I think some people drink too much before they comment.
Also, the repetitive comments about men not understanding, or the line being blurred for them, etc. Fine, perhaps this is true, but isn’t that the point of making a post to say there are no free lunches? It has been posted so now there can be no more misunderstanding.
Anna — Smackdown! So well said. Thank you.
When I was a corporate executive, I was often asked for coffee so someone could pick my brain. I was a single parent, and asked them if they would come over on the weekend to my home, where I would make coffee with my kidderoo. No takers.
This week I was approached by a C suite executive to go for coffee as an escort. He wanted to get to know me, so he could see me in my condo (he hates hotels).
You know where this goes – he would then want to sample the goods “just to be sure”.
This added new meaning to invasiveness. He thought it was funny that I wanted $300 for java. Cock-roach, indeed!
The only way to establish worth is to have a price on it. I am open 13 hours a day, and every one of those days I pay for something, and I have upkeep, and administration. I am also a volunteer and a blood donor.
Bring me something more than coffee and your needs.
Ann — I’m actually amazed that no one took you up on your offer when you were in the corporate world, unless the point was that they wanted to do something more than pick your brains. (If I want to pick someone’s brains, I’m very open to what makes them comfortable since they’re doing ME a favor.)
I hate it when guys want to invade your personal space for no real reason (men on sugardaddy sites were the worst). And then, they think that escorts don’t have to pay rent with money — they think we pay it in wine and meals, apparently. Though the “goods sampling” is a bit much. What, did he think he was casting a movie or something??? Your website is all the sampling he’s going to get. Ugh.
“The only way to establish worth is to have a price on it. ” Yes, this. And this: “Bring me something more than coffee and your needs.” Because what do YOU get out of that, other than caffeine that you can get for yourself?
One more thought – an overdue one.
Amanda Brooks has always been very generous with her time. Why, look at the size of this thread! Her comments and advice have always been the gold standard in this business, and she has helped thousands, myself included. She has been very liberal with sharing her experience and opinions in her blogs and segments from her books. She is truly committed to helping others and has proven it over and over. Simply put, she has made it a safer, more professional, and more loving environment.
BIG FAT SLOPPY AIR KISS for all of your help and loving commitment. You earn the right to leadership every day.
Ann — Thank you for the compliments, and for pointing out the obvious: I give away a heck of a lot of my time for free and without demanding anything in return. Though usually that time isn’t given away to men who “just want to meet for coffee.”
Sloppy air kisses right back atchta! 🙂
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